The reason I have to post jmdoman‘s reply to a post I wrote a couple months ago as a picture is (I’m assuming) because he blocked me. This guy either had to search through my posts to find this, queued this several months ago, or got lucky and got in on a reblog (I don’t think this has been reblogged in forever though.)
My point is sir, if you are even able to read this, is that it was cowardly of you to block me after arguing against my point. If you read my initial reply I stated that it was her choice to do this, but it was not as Biblical a position as she so claims. I explained why it was not with my analysis.
So, allow me to address your points here:
Even if the command is only for husbands and wives it still creates an imbalance of power. I have a friend who is so much smarter than her husband, but she lives by the rule of submission. Really though, she is so much smarter that it is impossible for her to submit and for them to have a good life. She is constantly prodding her husband to do things a certain way because she knows it’s the better way. It turns into subtle manipulation, which is not ok. A better model would be if they submitted to each other whenever the other person had more knowledge. That’s just common sense.
Demanding submission from someone is always tyranny. It doesn’t matter if he has literally saved her life, she does not have to submit to him. She can choose to honor him and his decision, but she does not have to. Also, most men are not sacrificing their lives for their wives. They are alive and well. Even if they are willing it doesn’t make this right because there are women who are equally willing to die for their partner.
Some other thoughts:
In this day most women were child brides. Tradition has it that Mary was 12-14 when she was married. Tradition also has it that Joseph married later in life because he does not seem to be present during Christ’s ministry, although it was normal for boys to marry at around 16. In a society where the men were generally older than the women they were married to, and had more education, it was normal for a woman to submit to a man. Here is my source.
Today women in the US get more education than men. They are more likely to have a college degree. They are also less likely to get high paying jobs, though I’m not sure you would care about that.
Additionally, women were treated as property, as I stated above. Their opinions didn’t matter anyway. Oddly enough, not much has changed in today’s society.
Some things you should know about me:
I am a female pastor with a college degree from a Christian college.
I will fight you.
And if I run out of knowledge, I have some friends who can help.
Hey lady – I didn’t block you. I don’t know why you couldn’t reply to me. Sorry about that, but don’t blame me – blame tumblr. I don’t go on tumblr very often. The format annoys me. Anyway, if you get this, whoever you are, here’s my reply. 1) I don’t really see how any of what you wrote in “Some things you should know about me” is relevant to anything at all, so I’m gonna go ahead and ignore that. 2) Here’s some context to this bible verse, Ephesians 5:21-33 : Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
Now there’s a lot here, and way too much to unpack in a single post that probably no one will read anyway, but Ima gonna try anyway.
In no place here are men in general proclaimed to be superior to women, or vice versa. And nothing you said contradicts this. So my original point was right, and remains right. This passage of the bible isn’t about men and women – it’s about marriage, which is something special and unique, and (sorry) between a man and a woman. In fact, it’s a symbol of God’s love for the Church. So if anyone uses the infamous “wives, submit to your husbands” verse to argue that Christians believe than women are inferior to men, they are simply wrong. 100% wrong.
“
A better model would be if they submitted to each other.” Yes. Then they would be following Ephesians 5:21. See above. “Submit to each other, out of reverence for Christ.”
The command for wives to submit to their husbands IS hard. I don’t deny that. The command for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church is equally hard. Christ allowed himself to be tortured and humiliated for the sake of the Church. The command of 5:25 is telling husbands that they must be willing to do the same for their wives. Be tortured. be humiliated. Die. Die for this woman, your wife.
You did a good job in putting into context what kind of society these words were written to. A society where husbands were lords over their wives, and could control their lives. If you reflect on these words above – suffer, be humiliated, and die for your wife – do you really think these words are going to reinforce a patriarchal society… or undermine it? If a 40-year old man heard this command that he had to do all these things for his 16-year-old wife – that’s a good thing, isn’t it? There’s enough in the passage to enrage both feminists and MRAs. It’s an all-around offender. Both husbands and wives are called to submit to each other, and both in different ways. I personally think the men’s calling is actually worse, but that’s just my opinion. The point is: The two callings don’t WORK unless both are done. If a man tells his wife to submit to him and ignores the call to sacrifice his pride and his life to her, he’s disobedient. If a women orders her husband to sacrifice his pride and his life to her and ignores the call to respect him as the head of the marriage, she’s also being disobedient. Both are called to do hard things. Both are equally called. That’s the only way Christian marriage works.
Remember, too, that even though husbands are labeled as the leaders in a marriage, the Christian version of leadership is not something that’s very…appealing. For a Christian, leadership = servanthood.
Matthew 23:11:
“But the greatest among you shall be your servant.” Mark 9:35:
“Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all.” Luke 22:26: “But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.”
John 13:13-14: [Jesus talking to his apostles, after washing their feet]: “You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.”
So…when wives are called to submit to their husbands, one could really see this as a command to allow their husbands…to serve them!
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