thequantumqueer:
antifeminist111:
thequantumqueer:
antifeminist111:
alpacafurry:
mediapathic:
nextyearsgirl:
This is an enormous chain and I’m sorry, but I need to say this:
The laws in the Old Testament were set forth by god as the rules the Hebrews needed to follow in order to be righteous, to atone for the sin of Adam and Eve and to be able to get into Heaven. That is also why they were required to make sacrifices, because it was part of the appeasement for Original Sin.
According to Christian theology, when Jesus came from Heaven, it was for the express purpose of sacrificing himself on the cross so that our sins may be forgiven. His sacrifice was supposed to be the ultimate act that would free us from the former laws and regulations and allow us to enter Heaven by acting in his image. That is why he said “it is finished” when he died on the cross. That is why Christians don’t have to circumcise their sons (god’s covenant with Jacob), that is why they don’t have to perform animal sacrifice, or grow out their forelocks, or follow any of the other laws of Leviticus.
When you quote Leviticus as god’s law and say they are rules we must follow because they are what god or Jesus wants us to do, what you are really saying, as a Christian, is that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was invalid. He died in vain because you believe we are still beholden to the old laws. That is what you, a self-professed good Christian, are saying to your god and his son, that their plan for your salvation wasn’t good enough for you.
So maybe actually read the thing before you start quoting it, because the implications of your actions go a lot deeper than you think.
This is a theological point that doesn’t come up often enough.
Also the fact that Jesus actually did help gay people. So fuck anyone who uses Jesus to excuse their hate.
because I hate it when people get this wrong, I’m going to paste a passage from Corinthians, which is in the New Testament.
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6&version=ESV
While the Christians God loves his people, that does not mean he loves what they do. I don’t care what your beliefs are: the Christian god does not approve of homosexuality. Also, while Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice and now we can be forgiven of our sins, it does not mean we get to do whatever we want. remember: in order to be forgiven, you first have to acknowledge that you done wrong.
For people who are going to say something about how I’m being hateful and should be more loving, here is the biblical criteria for love. Notice how it never says that ” love is accepting every thing a person does“
“Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13&version=ESV
All I’m saying is that, if you want the Christian God to forgive your sins, then that means that your going to have to accept the fact that homosexual sex is considered a sin.
Believe what you choose to believe, but don’t for a moment say that the Christian God approves of homosexual sex. He doesn’t. He loves you, just not what you do.
Here’s the thing: Paul’s letters to the Corintians were a secondhand account. Paul was human. He was raised under the Torah. That means that it colored the way he interpreted Jesus’s teachings. PAUL WAS HUMAN, and humans get stuff wrong, even when they speak/act in God’s name.
And if you disagree, you inherently endorse the Crusades, including the Children’s Crusade of AD1212.
no I don’t. How can a my stance on this possibly endorse the crusades? You’re being manipulative- you’re just saying that so I’ll feel guilty somehow and change my mind. IT’s not going to work.
Anyway, That is such a silly point. You can’t use his humanity as a point because If you get to say that Paul is wrong cause he’s human means I get to say that your wrong cause your human. See how that doesn’t work?
Also, Paul was one of Jesus’ Apostles, so he wasn’t just any human. He walked and talked with god. So im pretty sure that Paul’s going to be accurate when it comes to what god wants. Especially since God never approved of gay sex in the past.
I know you are going to say “but the crucifixion changed everything! the old laws don’t apply!”
You’re half right. The old laws don’t apply, but the law wasn’t “God doesn’t approve of gay sex” the law was “kill anyone who has performed gay sex”
“Leviticus 20:13New Living Translation (NLT)
13 “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+20%3A13&version=NLT
so God still doesn’t approve of gay sex, its just now you don’t get to be killed cause of it.
Also Jesus is not a passive god, if Paul and the others were getting things wrong then I’m confidant that Jesus’ would have set things straight right then and there.
Now that I’m not caught off guard with 6 drinks in me, I can be a touch more coherent.
You’re right. He’s not passive. He teaches by example as well as by word. So even though neither Matthew, Mark, Luke or John remembered anything Him saying anything significant on the matter, we can still look at HIs actions, which, taken in their proper context, seem to indicate that He accepted all comers, which fits well with John 6:37, “…whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”
You’re right to say that Paul was no ordinary human, and that as an Apostle, he probably had a better sense of things than Constantine and his bishops did when they compiled the Bible almost 300 years later, but 1Cor was written roughly 20-25 years after the crucifixion, and Apostles were displaying their lack of perfection in His teachings even concurrent to it, as evident in Judas’ betrayal and Peter’s denial.
Even so, allow me to address both of the passages from 1Cor that you have drawn attention to, specifically parts of them that you yourself bolded:
- The first one you bring up doesn’t actually say “forgiven,” despite your comments on it. It says “justified.” If a court (such as the judgement of God) declares someone’s actions justified, then those actions have been found to be acceptable.
- Your claim that 1Cor 13:1-7 “never says that ‘love is accepting every thing a person does’” is demonstrably false. That’s what “bears all things” means.
Perhaps more salient to my point about Paul’s fallibility, however, is that both his own writings (which make up the vast majority of the New Testament) and Jesus’ own words frequently make blanket statements of inclusivity, in direct conflict with 1Cor 6:9-10.
- "…let the one who desires take the water of life without price. (Revelations 22:17)
- "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
- “even when we were dead in our trespasses, [He] made us alive together with Christ. By grace you have been saved.” (Ephesians 2:5)
Look at that last one again. That is the sentiment you took umbridge with. The idea that it doesn’t matter what we do, His grace covers us and welcomes us into heaven.
Here’s the thing though: I’m not even sure whether I consider myself Christian anymore. The label doesn’t really fit, in the absence of a denomination that shares my beliefs and conclusions. But there are A TON of non-cishet people, especially kids, who desperately need everyone fighting for them that they can possibly muster. Because in all of this debate, there are verses that are constantly forgotten.
"Christian” parents disown their non-cishet children in direct violation of 1 Timothy 5:8.
“But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
And anyone who scorns non-cishet christians is ignoring James 2:1-4.
“My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?”
More important than anything else in this post though, is that the US is not a theocracy and therefore “but the bible says” has no place in legislature. Non-cishets deserve rights, on virtue of being human.
No one is arguing that the us is a theocracy so that point isn’t relevant.
Anyway, Jesus accepts people, but that means that people have to go to him, which means they’ll have to realize that they were wrong and he is right. That’s the entire point of the bible. Humans screw up, then the realize they screwed up, then go to Jesus for forgiveness and turn their life around. That’s basically the whole point of Galatians.
Galation 2: 15-21
Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
“17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+2&version=ESV
Galatians 5:16-26English Standard Version (ESV)
Keep in Step with the Spirit
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:16-26
Your logic is flawed. Saying that because the word “justified” was used instead of “forgiven” means that God accepts everything you do, then you are also saying that god justifies pedophilia, murder and theft.
Remember the words “washed” and “sanctified” were used, which means that we still have to change our behavior when we give ourselves over to god. One of the huge difference between old testament and new testament is our motives. In Leviticus, people obeyed god’s word out of fear of capital punishment, but now we do it out of the genuine desire to please god.
My response to you saying that “love is accepting anything a person does” is this-you’re not even trying anymore. IT clearly states that “love does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth”.
1 Corinthians 13:4-7English Standard Version (ESV)
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13%3A4-7
the word bear, outside the US means “To take responsibility”. Since the Bible wasn’t written in the US, then I think we can assume that the US deifnion doesn’t apply.
2bear
verb ˈber
: to accept or endure (something) ( US )
: to be worthy of (something) : to deserve or allow (something)
: to assume or accept (something, such as cost or responsibility)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bear
This makes since, given the fact that JESUS made it his responsibility to give us a way to salvation, which brings me to my next point. Because of the crucifixion, humans don’t have to make sacrifices or do weird self harm stuff to repent for their sins. JESUs did all the suffering for us, all we have to do now is ask. that’s what it means by “cost”
Discrimination- or withholding love (as defined in Corinthians) from someone- is not the same thing as acknowledging what is a sin. You are too focused on not hurting people feelings to accept the truth. The truth is that we will all have to change our behavior in order to please god.
To be completely honest, i don’t give two shits what you believe. If you believe it’s sinful not to be cishet, then be cishet. A jewish or muslim person could just as easily tell you that you’re going to hell for believing Jesus was the Messiah, but they don’t because no one’s beliefs entitle them to harrass or discriminate against anyone else.
LGBTQIAP+ people deserve the same rights as anyone else, especially because this seems to be the only issue that people care about. I’ve never seen anyone try to annul a christian woman’s marriage to an atheist man, or the marriage of a non-virgin, and your argument that just because the punishment has been lifted doesn’t mean the act no longer requires repentance never seems to be applied to the rest of the Law, such as wearing mixed fabrics, working on Sunday, or eating pork.
At this point, I’m just tired of arguing with you. I have things to do, and no desire to make your bigotry one of them.
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